Comments on: And the Moral of the Story Is… http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:54:00 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Kevin http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-125 Kevin Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:35:32 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-125 I'm was a math major. Frankly, I don't see there is much relationship between math and religion. However, there are a few points to be made, though they don't really fit in with studying math itself. 1) Math is useful to us because God created an orderly universe 2) Math can be used (e.g. statistics) to promote ideas that accord with a biblical world view, but only if mathematicians do the necessary work. I’m was a math major. Frankly, I don’t see there is much relationship between math and religion. However, there are a few points to be made, though they don’t really fit in with studying math itself.

1) Math is useful to us because God created an orderly universe

2) Math can be used (e.g. statistics) to promote ideas that accord with a biblical world view, but only if mathematicians do the necessary work.

]]> By: Grafted Branch@Restoring The Years http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-114 Grafted Branch@Restoring The Years Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:51:33 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-114 With all due respect to a seemingly like-minded (which is to doctrinal position) blogger, I must disagree with Shannon (comment #2) when she says, "An example off the top of my head? I think if every time I fixed dinner I was saying “oh God made the lettuce and thank you Lord for the chicken and God is the author of eggs…” well, I think that might lose its meaning after a while." Actually, considering how many millions of moments in a day we neglect to recognize and thank God for the wonderful way He holds our very beings together (Colossians), I think it's tremendously important to help children see God in as much as is within our ability and control to do. He is a great God, and worthy to be praised! We often pause to thank God for His blessings and care...right down to the origins so we can really "get it." I wouldn't normally leave a link, but may I be so bold? You can read such a prayer I blogged to remember here: http://restoringtheyears.blogspot.com/2007/05/lunchtime-thanksgiving.html With all due respect to a seemingly like-minded (which is to doctrinal position) blogger, I must disagree with Shannon (comment #2) when she says,

“An example off the top of my head? I think if every time I fixed dinner I was saying “oh God made the lettuce and thank you Lord for the chicken and God is the author of eggs…” well, I think that might lose its meaning after a while.”

Actually, considering how many millions of moments in a day we neglect to recognize and thank God for the wonderful way He holds our very beings together (Colossians), I think it’s tremendously important to help children see God in as much as is within our ability and control to do.

He is a great God, and worthy to be praised!

We often pause to thank God for His blessings and care…right down to the origins so we can really “get it.” I wouldn’t normally leave a link, but may I be so bold? You can read such a prayer I blogged to remember here:

http://restoringtheyears.blogspot.com/2007/05/lunchtime-thanksgiving.html

]]> By: graceful http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-112 graceful Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:22:35 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-112 I actually happen not to like the phrase "do your best" as a way to explain the 1 Corinthians verse to kids, because I think many kids interpret that phrase as "do it perfectly." The unfortunate effect of that sentiment, for children of all ability levels, is that they think you are "dumb" if you have to put forth any effort. To put it another way, many kids think that being smart is equivalent to doing something perfectly the first time you try, without having to expend any effort - so telling them that the Bible says to "do your best" may actually be communicating something very different than what we were hoping to communicate! A better way to explain doing everything (in terms of education) for God's glory is, I think, to talk about attitude. What does it mean for a student to do math or art or history to God's glory? I think it may be to honor their teacher, respect students they're working with, work dilligently, complete assignments and tests with honesty, be humble about their successes, and maintain a positive attitude about those things they don't like or aren't good at. In terms of how to teach different subjects from a biblical worldview, this is the classic "integration of faith and learning" question. I went to a Christian college and learned about various faith integration models, and found some more personally satisfying than others. I wonder if I still have my class notes about that... Anyway, I think a helpful place to start is to repeatedly communicate to kids that education is about creativity, curiosity, and learning about truth, beauty, and goodness in various forms - and that all of those things ultimately teach us about God and point us to Christ. Making that connection happens incrementally over time and, in my opinion, should be the student's job just as much as (if not more than) the teacher's job. Let them know that those connections will happen if they're on the lookout, and then let them use their minds! Kids are so often capable of more than we think. I'm not saying never help them out, but I do think that modeling making your own connections about what you're learning is more powerful than taking their learning into your own hands and doing their mind-work for them. How to avoid the squirrel scenario? One way is to make sure your methods are developmentally appropriate, as another commenter suggested. Another way is to ask more sophisticated questions that require something more than a one-word answer. :) I actually happen not to like the phrase “do your best” as a way to explain the 1 Corinthians verse to kids, because I think many kids interpret that phrase as “do it perfectly.” The unfortunate effect of that sentiment, for children of all ability levels, is that they think you are “dumb” if you have to put forth any effort. To put it another way, many kids think that being smart is equivalent to doing something perfectly the first time you try, without having to expend any effort – so telling them that the Bible says to “do your best” may actually be communicating something very different than what we were hoping to communicate! A better way to explain doing everything (in terms of education) for God’s glory is, I think, to talk about attitude. What does it mean for a student to do math or art or history to God’s glory? I think it may be to honor their teacher, respect students they’re working with, work dilligently, complete assignments and tests with honesty, be humble about their successes, and maintain a positive attitude about those things they don’t like or aren’t good at.

In terms of how to teach different subjects from a biblical worldview, this is the classic “integration of faith and learning” question. I went to a Christian college and learned about various faith integration models, and found some more personally satisfying than others. I wonder if I still have my class notes about that… Anyway, I think a helpful place to start is to repeatedly communicate to kids that education is about creativity, curiosity, and learning about truth, beauty, and goodness in various forms – and that all of those things ultimately teach us about God and point us to Christ. Making that connection happens incrementally over time and, in my opinion, should be the student’s job just as much as (if not more than) the teacher’s job. Let them know that those connections will happen if they’re on the lookout, and then let them use their minds! Kids are so often capable of more than we think. I’m not saying never help them out, but I do think that modeling making your own connections about what you’re learning is more powerful than taking their learning into your own hands and doing their mind-work for them.

How to avoid the squirrel scenario? One way is to make sure your methods are developmentally appropriate, as another commenter suggested. Another way is to ask more sophisticated questions that require something more than a one-word answer. :)

]]> By: Rose Bexar http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-111 Rose Bexar Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:55:07 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-111 What you've said is true, Kim, and I've made the same argument earlier. The fact that there are rules implies a Rule-maker, and it's no accident that "Meotod," the Measurer, was one of the Anglo-Saxon names for God. Indeed, the idea that we can know *at all* requires a certain set of beliefs--look at Julia Kristeva's essay that argues, on the basis of Lacanian/Freudian psychoanalysis, that learning is impossible. My only point in saying "to a certain extent" was that *classroom instruction* need not, and perhaps should not, *begin* by hammering the fact that the world works because God designed it. The assumption has to be there, but it doesn't have to be explicit until the child asks how we know. What you’ve said is true, Kim, and I’ve made the same argument earlier. The fact that there are rules implies a Rule-maker, and it’s no accident that “Meotod,” the Measurer, was one of the Anglo-Saxon names for God. Indeed, the idea that we can know *at all* requires a certain set of beliefs–look at Julia Kristeva’s essay that argues, on the basis of Lacanian/Freudian psychoanalysis, that learning is impossible. My only point in saying “to a certain extent” was that *classroom instruction* need not, and perhaps should not, *begin* by hammering the fact that the world works because God designed it. The assumption has to be there, but it doesn’t have to be explicit until the child asks how we know.

]]> By: KimC http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-109 KimC Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:12:50 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-109 Warning: soapbox sermon ahead. Proceed at your own risk. How math is taught depends upon the teacher's religious presuppositions. I think we are largely unaware of this because our culture is built upon Christian thinking and presuppositions. Even those who do not call themselves Christians are still affected by generations of Christian thinking. In a world that is truly ruled by chance, you never know if 2+2 will be 4. We simply assume that it will be the same answer we have generally seen. ("How do I know that 2+2 is four? In my experience, 2+2 has always been 4.") This is the logical conclusion of those who hold to evolution. If I believe that truth is relative, 2+2 will be whatever I believe it to be. This thinking has begun to infiltrate schools, in that teachers will ask for a "a better" answer rather than the *correct* answer. The concept of right and wrong is slowly being erased - perhaps because we have forgotten the importance, the basis, and the definition of the concept. Many eastern religions hold that all is one. This underlying belief has obvious impact upon mathematics - and believe it or not, it does have practical mathematical application. Evolution is the most obvious example of why science can and must be taught from a Christian perspective. Evolution is based not upon the simple observation of the world around us, but the *interpretation* of what we see. Non-Christians have interpreted what they see based upon non-Christian assumptions, and put forth their opinions as fact. By teaching these "facts" to very young children, they are teaching children to build their thinking upon non-Christian thought patterns. They are teaching children the "squirrel scenario" in reverse. The answer *can't* be God, so it must be evolution. In music and art, our presuppositions very quickly come into play again: how do we know what is good or what is beautiful? Is it because it pleases *me*? Doesn't this sound a bit humanistic? What if I hate what you love? Is quality in art or music simply relative? We are certainly seeing the effects of pursuing art and music from an anti-Christian perspective: violent rap music and poo-smeared canvas art come immediately to mind. Without an absolute standard, who are we to say that these works of art are inferior to those of Michelangelo or Bach? Actual methods might vary but teachers must teach every subject from a Christian perspective, or else they are teaching from an anti-Christian perspective. There is no neutrality, even in math, science and the arts, and it is good for our children to understand this from the very beginning. Warning: soapbox sermon ahead. Proceed at your own risk.
How math is taught depends upon the teacher’s religious presuppositions. I think we are largely unaware of this because our culture is built upon Christian thinking and presuppositions. Even those who do not call themselves Christians are still affected by generations of Christian thinking.
In a world that is truly ruled by chance, you never know if 2+2 will be 4. We simply assume that it will be the same answer we have generally seen. (“How do I know that 2+2 is four? In my experience, 2+2 has always been 4.”) This is the logical conclusion of those who hold to evolution.
If I believe that truth is relative, 2+2 will be whatever I believe it to be. This thinking has begun to infiltrate schools, in that teachers will ask for a “a better” answer rather than the *correct* answer. The concept of right and wrong is slowly being erased – perhaps because we have forgotten the importance, the basis, and the definition of the concept.
Many eastern religions hold that all is one. This underlying belief has obvious impact upon mathematics – and believe it or not, it does have practical mathematical application.
Evolution is the most obvious example of why science can and must be taught from a Christian perspective. Evolution is based not upon the simple observation of the world around us, but the *interpretation* of what we see. Non-Christians have interpreted what they see based upon non-Christian assumptions, and put forth their opinions as fact. By teaching these “facts” to very young children, they are teaching children to build their thinking upon non-Christian thought patterns. They are teaching children the “squirrel scenario” in reverse. The answer *can’t* be God, so it must be evolution.
In music and art, our presuppositions very quickly come into play again: how do we know what is good or what is beautiful? Is it because it pleases *me*? Doesn’t this sound a bit humanistic?
What if I hate what you love? Is quality in art or music simply relative? We are certainly seeing the effects of pursuing art and music from an anti-Christian perspective: violent rap music and poo-smeared canvas art come immediately to mind. Without an absolute standard, who are we to say that these works of art are inferior to those of Michelangelo or Bach?

Actual methods might vary but teachers must teach every subject from a Christian perspective, or else they are teaching from an anti-Christian perspective. There is no neutrality, even in math, science and the arts, and it is good for our children to understand this from the very beginning.

]]> By: chickadee http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-93 chickadee Wed, 19 Sep 2007 04:34:10 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-93 i love what queen of carrots said about feeding them rich stories rather than asking questions. i try to do that. around first grade we do a lot of fables. my kids have really remembered those stories and at times, brought them back up again. just the other day my boy was calling us over and over again saying he was hurt and he wasn't. my girls brought up the story of the boy who cries wolf and i had an opportunity to tell it again. even my 3 year old hung on every word. i love what queen of carrots said about feeding them rich stories rather than asking questions. i try to do that. around first grade we do a lot of fables. my kids have really remembered those stories and at times, brought them back up again. just the other day my boy was calling us over and over again saying he was hurt and he wasn’t. my girls brought up the story of the boy who cries wolf and i had an opportunity to tell it again. even my 3 year old hung on every word.

]]> By: Emily http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-89 Emily Wed, 19 Sep 2007 02:23:59 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-89 Two things in response to previous posts, and then to answer Megan's question. First, "doing your best" is OK encouragement to let a kid know that he doesn't have to nail everything he tries perfectly the first time. However, the Bible is quite clear in a number of places that good intentions are not a substitute for holiness. Uzzah (1 Chron. 13) had good intentions when he tried to steady the ark, and God smote him. Further, all our rightneousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Kids know that intuitively and they want assurance (as we do) that they aren't "crazy". They need for the Bible to validate what they experience in their minds (namely, "I want to love God, but I can't resist beating the trash out of my brother when the opportunity arises.") The question then is how best to communicate plainly to any given age. Second, I agree that elementary aged children can comprehend rather sophisticated biblical ideas. My 5 yo asked me earlier this summer why, "if Saul saw the light and was changed and loved God, why did he still do bad things?" That is a big question! We talked about being made new, but not being totally new, about how believing in Jesus frees you to fight against your sin, and about Romans 7 and 8 (there was a 7 yo in on the conversation as well). Again, he knew intuitively that he, like Paul, believes in Jesus but still does bad things, and he needed to make sense of it. On to what we try to do----- First, we always used "normal" words that we would use around each other around the young kids and we expected that they would learn what they meant later. That was following the advice of Susan Hunt from the education office of the PCA. That turned out to be sound advice. We didn't dumb anything down. So they were familiar with words like "santification" (that one came in particularly handy in the above mentioned conversation with the 5 yo, as you can imagine) at a young age. Second, giving them the big story of the Bible is HUGE for them having a "full orbed" faith at a young age. The Bible is not a book of rules to follow, nor is it about heroes we should "be like". It is about God and how He redeems His people. My 7 yo is into Judges right now. We're talking about the whole picture of running away from God, God drawing you back, idolatry, "forgetting", etc. And, that there isn't anyplace else to go (John 6, Hebrews). We need Jesus. Megan, your question is too big! So many things to say. Everything else seems tangential to the question, but important too. Wish we could talk in person. One more thing, in case anyone is freaked out at talking about idolatry with a 7 yr old, I heard one kid tell the other that he had made his Star Wars toy into an idol, because "you always hold it in your hand". I fully thought he was going to tell him that idols are small figures, and then I heard him say, "an idol is something that you love more than you love God." So they DO GET IT. I had never explicitly told them that, although I had talked at length with my husband about such things in front of them. Clearly, I had underestimated God's working in him. Two things in response to previous posts, and then to answer Megan’s question.

First, “doing your best” is OK encouragement to let a kid know that he doesn’t have to nail everything he tries perfectly the first time. However, the Bible is quite clear in a number of places that good intentions are not a substitute for holiness. Uzzah (1 Chron. 13) had good intentions when he tried to steady the ark, and God smote him. Further, all our rightneousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Kids know that intuitively and they want assurance (as we do) that they aren’t “crazy”. They need for the Bible to validate what they experience in their minds (namely, “I want to love God, but I can’t resist beating the trash out of my brother when the opportunity arises.”) The question then is how best to communicate plainly to any given age.

Second, I agree that elementary aged children can comprehend rather sophisticated biblical ideas. My 5 yo asked me earlier this summer why, “if Saul saw the light and was changed and loved God, why did he still do bad things?” That is a big question! We talked about being made new, but not being totally new, about how believing in Jesus frees you to fight against your sin, and about Romans 7 and 8 (there was a 7 yo in on the conversation as well). Again, he knew intuitively that he, like Paul, believes in Jesus but still does bad things, and he needed to make sense of it.

On to what we try to do—–
First, we always used “normal” words that we would use around each other around the young kids and we expected that they would learn what they meant later. That was following the advice of Susan Hunt from the education office of the PCA. That turned out to be sound advice. We didn’t dumb anything down. So they were familiar with words like “santification” (that one came in particularly handy in the above mentioned conversation with the 5 yo, as you can imagine) at a young age.

Second, giving them the big story of the Bible is HUGE for them having a “full orbed” faith at a young age. The Bible is not a book of rules to follow, nor is it about heroes we should “be like”. It is about God and how He redeems His people. My 7 yo is into Judges right now. We’re talking about the whole picture of running away from God, God drawing you back, idolatry, “forgetting”, etc. And, that there isn’t anyplace else to go (John 6, Hebrews). We need Jesus.

Megan, your question is too big! So many things to say. Everything else seems tangential to the question, but important too. Wish we could talk in person.

One more thing, in case anyone is freaked out at talking about idolatry with a 7 yr old, I heard one kid tell the other that he had made his Star Wars toy into an idol, because “you always hold it in your hand”. I fully thought he was going to tell him that idols are small figures, and then I heard him say, “an idol is something that you love more than you love God.” So they DO GET IT. I had never explicitly told them that, although I had talked at length with my husband about such things in front of them. Clearly, I had underestimated God’s working in him.

]]> By: kim http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-87 kim Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:29:57 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-87 I try to teach my kids to do their best. I have told them that God knows we are not perfect, He doesnt expect us to always do things right, but He does love it when we try our best. The parable of the tithes (is that what it's called???) is a good example; it's not who gave the most, it's who gave their best. We may not have 100 coins to give, but if we give God our best, He will be so happy. I try to teach my kids to do their best. I have told them that God knows we are not perfect, He doesnt expect us to always do things right, but He does love it when we try our best.

The parable of the tithes (is that what it’s called???) is a good example; it’s not who gave the most, it’s who gave their best. We may not have 100 coins to give, but if we give God our best, He will be so happy.

]]> By: Allison http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-85 Allison Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:34:35 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-85 I was reading an old journal entry that reminded me of this thread-- about how I need to remind myself (and those I teach) that we are working toward the redemption of all things-- that whatever we do, we do to the glory of God knowing that eventually our math, science, art, music, etc. all hint at something glorious in the New Creation. That our efforts are not in vain. For example: in studying higher math concepts in college, our class collectively realized that the sheer beauty of Calculus points to the Creator and hints at a perfect order that we only see "as through a glass darkly." As we delved deeper into abstract formulas, the Truth of divine guidance became clearer. Even math points to Christ! This gives our studies meaning. Though we continue learning and striving to understand, we know we will not see it perfected in the here and now, but there is a purpose to higher study and one day it will be realized. I'm not sure how this relates to younger students, but I know I want my kid(s) to understand that their studies are not just for knowledge itself, but for the glory of God, to glorify Him with their minds and to bear witness to the fact that they are created in His image with intelligence and love and can use this to share His goodness and the hope of Christ with the world. Though they won't ever reach the pinnacle of that understanding now or even be sure they will see fruit from their efforts, we hope for the day God will make everything perfect and we can know Him perfectly. Therefore, our learning is part of a grander picture of striving for the New Creation and even "small" things like an algebra test are part of our calling to reflect redemption. I was reading an old journal entry that reminded me of this thread– about how I need to remind myself (and those I teach) that we are working toward the redemption of all things– that whatever we do, we do to the glory of God knowing that eventually our math, science, art, music, etc. all hint at something glorious in the New Creation. That our efforts are not in vain. For example: in studying higher math concepts in college, our class collectively realized that the sheer beauty of Calculus points to the Creator and hints at a perfect order that we only see “as through a glass darkly.” As we delved deeper into abstract formulas, the Truth of divine guidance became clearer. Even math points to Christ! This gives our studies meaning. Though we continue learning and striving to understand, we know we will not see it perfected in the here and now, but there is a purpose to higher study and one day it will be realized.

I’m not sure how this relates to younger students, but I know I want my kid(s) to understand that their studies are not just for knowledge itself, but for the glory of God, to glorify Him with their minds and to bear witness to the fact that they are created in His image with intelligence and love and can use this to share His goodness and the hope of Christ with the world. Though they won’t ever reach the pinnacle of that understanding now or even be sure they will see fruit from their efforts, we hope for the day God will make everything perfect and we can know Him perfectly. Therefore, our learning is part of a grander picture of striving for the New Creation and even “small” things like an algebra test are part of our calling to reflect redemption.

]]> By: Anne http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-84 Anne Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:54:18 +0000 http://howkidsthink.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/and-the-moral-of-the-story-is/#comment-84 I think Queen of Carrots is really on to something about the way we teach little ones. My kids aren't little anymore, though, and as far as Megan's question: <i>How do you approach teaching kids that, “whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31)? What does math look like when taught from a biblical worldview? How about science? art? music?</i> I believe we parents/teachers set the tone for this. Do I see all subjects under Christ's lordship? Am I glorifying God in the way I work at schoolwork? Am I appreciating (or at least working to appreciate) math, when it's definitely not my favorite thing, because it was created by God? Am I "dazzled" (as our pastor likes to say) by God? Do I compartmentalize my faith? I do think we have to be intentional about teaching our children as we walk, rise, go along the way, etc., but they need to see us <i>doing and believing </i> what we're teaching/talking about. I think Queen of Carrots is really on to something about the way we teach little ones.

My kids aren’t little anymore, though, and as far as Megan’s question: How do you approach teaching kids that, “whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31)? What does math look like when taught from a biblical worldview? How about science? art? music?

I believe we parents/teachers set the tone for this. Do I see all subjects under Christ’s lordship? Am I glorifying God in the way I work at schoolwork? Am I appreciating (or at least working to appreciate) math, when it’s definitely not my favorite thing, because it was created by God? Am I “dazzled” (as our pastor likes to say) by God? Do I compartmentalize my faith?

I do think we have to be intentional about teaching our children as we walk, rise, go along the way, etc., but they need to see us doing and believing what we’re teaching/talking about.

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